[PD] distinction Pd lingo: abstraction, subpatch, subwindow

[Max]

I see, then maybe we are better off without umbrella term and just refer 
to subpatches and abstractions as "subpatches and abstractions".

m.

On 12.08.2018 19:58, Miller Puckette wrote:
> Trouble might be that there are other forms of subwindows (array, text) that
> aren't patches.  So we'd need a term for 'a subwindow that's a patch'.  Maybe
> 'patch subwindow'?  But that's so close to 'subpatch' that it would make
> everythig worse I think.
> 
> cheers
> M
> 
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 07:00:36PM +0200, Max wrote:
>> May I propose subwindow as an umbrella term for both abstractions and
>> subpatches?
>>
>> Both terms should be either hyphenated or not. I am fine with not
>> hyphenating them, but as a native German speaker I might have a bias towards
>> sticking words together.
>>
>> m.
>>
>> On 12.08.2018 18:45, Miller Puckette wrote:
>>> Well, (adopting for the moment subpatch/abstraction for the larger class and
>>> one-off subpatch for the more specific one of a non-abstraction)...
>>>
>>> I imagine that more things are true of subpatch/abstractions (they have
>>> subwindows, inlets, outlets; and their run-time semantics are identical)
>>> than are true of either subset alone (of which we may say that saving and
>>> loading, and $-argument handling act differently).
>>>
>>> So it's convenient to have some name or other for 'abstraction/subpatch'...
>>> but if just calling this a 'subpatch' is confusing, perhaps we can think of
>>> another term.
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> Miller
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 02:23:15PM +0200, Max wrote:
>>>> Hi Miller, thanks for chiming in.
>>>>
>>>> On 12.08.2018 00:54, Miller Puckette wrote:
>>>>> I think the best terminology is "sub-patch" for either an abstraction or
>>>>> for a one-off subpatch.  (But then we probably need a better term for 'one-off';
>>>>> maybe 'ad hoc'?
>>>>
>>>> may I ask the rationale for it?
>>>>
>>>> I believe a clearly defined and consistent terminology is very important for
>>>> people trying to understand the manuals and helpfiles.
>>>> The definitions in 2.7 and 2.7.1 are good, and I think the terms "subpatch"
>>>> and "abstraction" are good too.
>>>> ** subpatch ** is like a folder structure where things can be put into and
>>>> stuffed away.
>>>> ** abstraction ** is exactly what it sounds like. The term doesn't try to be
>>>> what a "class" is in other languages, I think that's smart.
>>>>
>>>> The established definitions give us a clear distinction between externals,
>>>> abstractions and subpatches.
>>>>
>>>> Now I just wish the documentation would be consistent with those established
>>>> terms and not adding confusion by using the terms differently.
>>>>
>>>> m.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers
>>>>> Miller
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 07, 2018 at 01:44:18PM +0200, Max wrote:
>>>>>> In the Pd documentation the word
>>>>>>
>>>>>> abstraction is found 1859 times
>>>>>> subpatch is found 2142 times
>>>>>> sub-patch is found 45 times
>>>>>> subwindow is found 24 times
>>>>>> sub-window is found 1 time (that's in the html document, where it occurs 3
>>>>>> times hyphenated and 1 time not hyphenated)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For reference: Definitions of the terms subpatch and abstraction can be
>>>>>> found in paragraphs 2.7 and 2.7.1 of the documentation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The terms however are consistently used inconsistent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in 2.7.2 "Graph-on-parent subpatches" the illustration shows an abstraction,
>>>>>> not a subpatch. The text first talks about an abstraction and then
>>>>>> continues: "When the sub-patch is closed, all controls in it appear on the
>>>>>> object instead; so the number box in the sub-patch in the example above is
>>>>>> the same one as you see in the box. "
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even weirder, there is a definition of the term "abstraction" in the
>>>>>> clone-help.pd which goes as follows: "a patch loaded as an object in another
>>>>>> patch"
>>>>>> but in the same patch the clones abstraction is named "clone-subpatch.pd".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there something I am missing here?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> m.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 05.08.2018 12:01, Max wrote:
>>>>>>> OK, let me try myself, please correct me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An abstraction is a Pd patch which is used like an object in another Pd
>>>>>>> patch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A subpatch is saved within the main patch and is constructed with [pd
>>>>>>> {name}]. Multiple subpatches with the same name may coexist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subwindow is the umbrella term for both of the prior terms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone can confirm that the above definition is true, I will make
>>>>>>> some pull requests to the documentation/ help files since it isn't
>>>>>>> consistent. The pd~-help for example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 04.08.2018 14:05, Max wrote:
>>>>>>>> In the helpfiles and on this list the three words
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'abstraction'
>>>>>>>> 'subpatch' or 'sub-patch'
>>>>>>>> 'subwindow'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> are used. could someone provide a definition of those? I suspect
>>>>>>>> they aren't used in a consistent way throughout the documentation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> m.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>