[PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

Hans-Christoph Steiner hans at eds.org
Wed Oct 17 16:27:23 CEST 2007

You absolutely have a valid opinion, its' good to hear it on this  
list.  Now it seems that this thread is actually getting somewhere.   
I had decided to ignore it, so I didn't realize the depths it had  
fallen to.

I also have a strong distaste for the "gang bang" talk and macho  
programming. It seems that computer music is one of the last bastions  
of male dominance, I mean even most Linux events are at least 20%  
female, not so in the computer music world.  As someone who was  
raised by a strong feminist, I have always wondered what I could do  
to change that.  So far I haven't found an answer, but I am always  
open to suggestions.

It does seem that the macho geek culture is a common complaint.  A  
friend of mine started college in the Mechanical Engineering  
department since she'd always wanted to make things.  She was one of  
few women in the department, and was constantly challenged and mocked  
because she was a woman.  Needless to say, she changed departments,  
but still wishes she was a mechanical engineer.  Sadly, I think that  
such things happen with Pd a lot as well.


On Oct 17, 2007, at 3:34 AM, Alicia Byer wrote:

> Hi everybody,
> Maybe I have no valid opinion because I just lurk on this list, but I
> don't appreciate being called "girl" either, I'm in my mid-twenties
> also. And I agree with Darsh and Alejandra. The kind of terms and
> attitudes being thrown around about gang-bangs and gross sex make  
> me not
> want to join in any discussions. It seems designed to keep me out.  
> It's
> just like my supercollider class in college where I was one of two
> women, and the professor kept discussing what one should do to be a  
> real
> "jock" programmer, and everything had to be so macho all the time. I
> guess it's just "male bonding" but it's excluding others that want to
> learn. I am just sick of this attitude from some guys that women can't
> be real composers, musicians, programmers, whatever. I mean.. It's
> 2007!!! Not the stone age.
> Anyway, thanks everybody.
> -Alicia
> pueblo at mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
>>> hey ho
>> hi roman
>>> let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread  
>>> in a
>>> dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered  
>>> through
>>> very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at  
>>> all to
>>> the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming  
>>> to a
>>> point.
>> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic  
>> of sexism
>> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there.  
>> gender, we
>> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
>> for example this
>> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
>> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
>> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
>> deeper degree in the conversation.
>> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was  
>> followed by a
>> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
>> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
>> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to  
>> mention some
>> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
>> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self  
>> employed
>> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
>> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of  
>> technology in
>> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
>> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to  
>> answer it!.
>> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last  
>> problem
>> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that  
>> thread until
>> the end ;)
>>  since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
>>> serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
>>> couldn't be established.
>> i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I  
>> wanted to
>> propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
>> argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
>> mountains)
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha
>> and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total  
>> discredit, is
>> not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal  
>> and we
>> face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas  
>> of the
>> world. So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
>> this.
>> and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would  
>> like
>> some good internet radio
>> http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php
>> I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any  
>> particular
>> complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
>> outside the list:
>> - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an  
>> external, ah
>> yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well  
>> Yves can do
>> that  you don't have to do that.
>> -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the  
>> visual
>> artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this  
>> prejudice that
>> women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
>> -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat  
>> meeting (!)
>> -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do  
>> sound
>> because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of  
>> visuals
>> but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that
>> participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects  
>> to keep
>> on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
>> it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes  
>> that
>> would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and  
>> ask around
>> why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.
>> Alejandra
>>> On Tue, 2007-10-16 at 19:38 +0200, pueblo at mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
>>>>> yves,
>>>>> I haven't noticed anything offensive on the list like you describe
>>>> (maybe
>>>>> you're mixing life on the streets with life on the pd-list? :))
>>>> hi David and all,
>>>> I don't know if you didn't follow some threads but here are some
>>>> examples
>>>> of greasy jokes:
>>> yo, i am glad, that you bring some realworld cases up. i think, this
>>> could be a basis for a real discussion.
>>>> From:   	João Miguel Pais <jmmmpais at googlemail.com>
>>>> Date:   	Tue, October 9, 2007 1:29 pm
>>>> - do you know how many feminists are necessary to change a  
>>>> lightbulb? 2:
>>>> One to change the lightbulb, and one to s**k my c**k.
>>>> [I think all users are old enough to read this, and at least it's a
>>>> humorous tone, not purely offensive like some mails in the last  
>>>> weeks]
>>> i don't know, how obvious this was, but i am pretty sure, that in  
>>> the
>>> first place it wasn't jmmmp's intention to make bad jokes, that  
>>> insult
>>> feminists. i would rather say, that he, as probably some others,  
>>> felt,
>>> that this discussion was going to nowhere and probably wanted to
>>> provocate a discussion by bringing up the most stupid macho joke (or
>>> whatever this should be called) he could think of. obviously he
>>> succeeded. i wouldn't count that as an example of chauvinism in the
>>> list, since it seems, that it was triggered by the topic 'sexism' in
>>> order to question the ongoing discussion.
>>> accusing him of chauvinism would be too simple in that case,  
>>> though i do
>>> not approve sending such sentences to a public mailing list,  
>>> regardless
>>> of the intention.
>>>> I really didn't want to post another OT but to be blind about  
>>>> the facts
>>>> is
>>>> just a bit too much for me to keep silent.
>>> i think, the whole community would agree, that whatever is troubling
>>> someone in a serious manner, it should be brought up here.
>>> roman
>>> ___________________________________________________________
>>> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen  
>>> Yahoo! Mail:
>>> http://mail.yahoo.de
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