[PD] [OT] Re: about sexism is TERMINATE THREAD PLEASE

Roman Haefeli reduzierer at yahoo.de
Wed Oct 17 23:23:22 CEST 2007

hello again

On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 08:23 +0200, pueblo at mail.ljudmila.org wrote:
> > let me switch in again. it was not my intention to stop a thread in a
> > dictatorship way. i just noticed, that the discussion meandered through
> > very different subject-matters, that weren't related anymore at all to
> > the original topic 'sexism', and it seems, that it wasn't coming to a
> > point.
> thanks for switching in again, I feel we don't discuss the topic of sexism
> which is in front of our sex, it is basically always there. gender, we
> keep on being fixed on gender on agressive attitudes, intolerance.
> for example this
> http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2007-10/054689.html
> If I remember well Matju was also molested by this.
> to me this was intolerance because it doesn't allow us to get into a
> deeper degree in the conversation.

yo, i see. me as well would feel more comfortable without having this
kind of posts in the list. however - and by saying that i don't want to
justify it -  this probably is rather an expression of uneasiness and
anxiety to be accused of sexism too carelessly as a man (not that this
happened on the list, but in general, this is surely an issue as well).

> It may also be known as male bonding (funnily enough  it was followed by a
> funny advertisementlike max msp thread)
> I've been speaking with other fellow women from the Pd convention in
> Montreal about why we don't write to the list and I have to mention some
> practical factors, a different division of labor, many of the women
> that can take the time to read the pd list are independent, self employed
> and doing multiple jobs and arrangements to live-- some of us are not
> 'professional' programmers but we get to deal with a lot of technology in
> our work with sensors, diy, electronica,  computer music, web
> programming,. So, some of us feel that we don't have time to answer it!.
> I learn pd by myself and the list is very useful though. My last problem
> was creb compilation and I solved it very fast following that thread until
> the end ;)
>  since this is still a list about pd, i proposed in a not so
> > serious way to bury that thread, since a real discussion obviously
> > couldn't be established.
> i think your attempt was very kind and brought some peace. I wanted to
> propose to brew a drink that people make in bolivia, peru, chile,
> argentina,  ecuador guatemala and many places in altiplano (high
> mountains)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicha

what should we say instead of 'cheers'?

> and about feminist jokes. well you know feminism is in total discredit, is
> not fashionable anymore but the conditions for women are not equal and we
> face feminicide (this is extermination of women)in various areas of the
> world. 

this is true and very sad. however i don't see the point in discussing
such big world problems in pd-list.

> So I don't mind being sensitive to anything that is related to
> this.
> and some feminist from the south are excellent, in case you would like
> some good internet radio
> http://nueva.radionumerocritico.cl/news.php

thanks for the link, though i probably need to learn spanish first ;-)
i tried the streams ( http://stream.r23.cc:2323/ranumcri.mp3 ), but i

Server returned 404:File Not Found

> I didn't start this thread on sexism because I didn't have any particular
> complaint against this list although I can remember some situations
> outside the list:
> - once a pd friend said to me that still no women wrote an external, ah
> yes I would like to program a external I said. He said oh well Yves can do
> that  you don't have to do that.
> -once a pd friend which I wanted to talk to said ah! you are the visual
> artist that works with Yves. that was ok but there is this prejudice that
> women doing pd do visuals. Ah no, I make noise.
> -once a pd friend didn't include me in the logs of a pd irc chat meeting (!)
> -once a pd friend said that his professor said that women can't do sound
> because is too abstract for them, they need the materiality of visuals

what i find really alarming about these examples is the fact, that they
do not only show a form of sexism, that is based on bad using of words,
but, what i think is much more serious, illustrate, how deep certain
concepts of gender are squatted in some brains. i don't know what do

> but many other times I have also been -very encouraged by people that
> participate a lot in the list and in pd meetings and pd projects to keep
> on learning and feel more confident in my autonomy towards media.
> it would be better IMHO to discuss things and not avoid it but yes that
> would take time, to look into what we really mean by sexism and ask around
> why women (hey but not only women) don't participate in this spaces.



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