[PD] (breaking symbols) was Re: find a list of numbers in a text file

[Hans-Christoph Steiner]

On Sep 8, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

> 
> On Sep 7, 2011, at 5:46 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > 
> > > From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans at at.or.at>
> > > To: Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com>
> > > Cc: fbar <fbar at footils.org>; "pd-list at iem.at" <pd-list at iem.at>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 4:04 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [PD] (breaking symbols) was Re: find a list of
> > > numbers in a text file
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sep 6, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
> > > 
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > 
> > > > > From: fbar <fbar at footils.org>
> > > > > To: "pd-list at iem.at" <pd-list at iem.at>
> > > > > Cc:
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 3:53 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PD] (breaking symbols) was Re: find a list of
> > > > > numbers in
> > > a text file
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Tue, Sep 06, 2011 at 09:44:33AM +0200, Frank Barknecht
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > I'm not sure what "appears in the patch" should mean.
> > > It
> > > > > definitly means
> > > > > > that numercial-symbol selectors don't get shown and cannot
> > > > > > be
> > > written
> > > > > > into a patch, so you cannot use them in the editor where
> > > "real"
> > > > > > selectors should be written, like in [route].
> > > > > 
> > > > > Forgot to add: Of course it is possible and legal to "use"
> > > numerical
> > > > > or
> > > > > non-printable symbols as selectors, but they have to be
> > > > > constructed
> > > > > dynamically and cannot be typed, in accordance with the
> > > > > restrictions
> > > > > mentioned in the manual. Instead something like this can be
> > > > > used:
> > > > > 
> > > > >   [makefilename %d]
> > > > >   |
> > > > >   |                  [makefilename %d]
> > > > >   |                  |
> > > > >   [select symbol-dummy]
> > > > > 
> > > > > I used [makefilename %d] a lot in the rj library's
> > > > > [m_chorddict]
> > > > > dictionary for chords, where some chord names are proper
> > > > > symbols, like
> > > > > "m7", while others are floats like 7. The float-names get
> > > converted to
> > > > > symbols internally to look up chord notes in a data structure
> > > > > array
> > > > > keyed by symbols only (using [m_symbolarray]).
> > > > 
> > > > At what point are you using numerical-symbol selectors?
> > > >  Everything
> > > you've
> > > > described has the selector 'symbol'.
> > > > 
> > > > If you mean you let the user send symbols or floats as the key
> > > > and convert
> > > > internally, that's _exactly_ what I'm proposing.
> > > 
> > > I guess I'm not clear on your proposal.  Is it that a "symbol"
> > > selector automatically converts things to a symbol?  That makes a
> > > lot of sense,
> > > and would help with other issues.  Then you could also make
> > > symbols with spaces,
> > > like:
> > > 
> > > [symbol 43(
> > > [symbol /home/hans/My Documents(
> > 
> > Well, that's something I've wanted for a long time.  But what I am
> > proposing has to do with
> > selectors, not symbol messages.
> > 
> > Problem: convert from symbol-atom to float-atom
> > Proposal: if a selector happens to be in a form that can be
> > interpreted by the
> > naked eye as a valid Pd float, and the object receiving the message
> > has a float method
> > (and no anything method), then send a float to the object.
> > 
> > [r infinite-expressivity]
> > |
> > [1( <- float
> > |
> > [makefilename %d] <-- converted to symbol message (and the message
> > arg is convert to a symbol-atom)
> > |
> > [list trim] <-- now we have a message with the selector 1 and no
> > arguments
> > |
> > [route float] <-- seriously, it's a symbol-atom, not a float
> >             |
> > ------------+
> > |
> > [float] <-- my proposal: give [float] a float-atom instead of a
> > symbol-atom in this case
> > |
> > [route float]
> > |
> > [set $1, bang(
> > |
> > [s infinite-expressivity]
> > 
> > But if there were a really nice quoting mechanism, that would
> > probably be much clearer.
> 
> Yes, I agree that [float] and [symbol] should also do conversions.  A
> good example would be Python's str() and float().
> 
> 
> > > etc.
> > > 
> > > A quoting mechanism would also help.  We could probably get away
> > > with only
> > > \.  For example, \ for spaces, like:
> > > 
> > > [symbol /home/hans/My\ Documents(
> > > [symbol I\ like\ lots\ of\ \ \ \ \ spaces(
> > > [symbol commas\,\ in\ symbols(
> > > [symbol semi-colon\;\ in\ symbols(
> > 
> > That looks really ugly to me.  What's wrong with "quotes"?
> 
> The nice part would be that it would only add one special character,
> \, which is currently not allowed anyway.  Adding "" or '' or ``
> quotes means some kind of backwards incompatibility, since '"` are
> currently all valid characters to have in a symbol.  Another easy
> option would be to use
> 
> I think this would be made much easier if the symbol selector forced
> the message to be a symbol, then you could do:
> 
> [symbol /home/hans/My Documents(
> [symbol I like lots of\ \ \ \ \ spaces(
> [symbol commas\, in symbols(
> [symbol semi-colon\; in symbols(
> [symbol \43(
> [symbol \-21343(
> [symbol \-0.2e59(
> 
> Then you'd only need the \ when its in other places, like:
> 
> [route \43]
> 
> > > And last but least, and its already in there:
> > > 
> > > [symbol \43(
> > > [symbol \-21343(
> > > [symbol \-0.2e59(
> > > 
> > > Anything that just \ couldn't cover?
> > 
> > [openpanel] <- outputs /home/hans/My documents
> > |
> > [set symbol $1(
> > |
> > [ ( <-- What's printed here? ...My documents or ...My\ documents?
> 
> 
> Depends on what the symbol selector does.  If the symbol selector
> forces the rest of the message to be a symbol, then there wouldn't
> need to be any backslashes there.  But it would probably be a good
> idea to have them there anyway.
> 


Here's an example of this idea applied to the [symbol] and [float]
boxes.

https://github.com/pd-projects/newtype

Also, I attached a Linux 32-bit version and a Mac OS X universal.

.hc


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