[PD] 4-point interpolation changes timbre depending on sample rate

Clemens Wegener clemens at chair.audio
Thu Apr 29 19:08:54 CEST 2021

@Miller, I just saw your message - we will try that asap!

Hello Chuck, 

Good point! Thanks for these thoughts, there is no good reason to duplicate the table with each object, apart from initially being too lazy to code it correctly.  

I will have a look at the code again and see which solution I can arrive at! Method 3. sounds a bit like the unique pointer idea in modern C++…

There is another thing that I struggle to understand: (I already posed this question on Github)

Should the sinc interpolation change its filter characteristics when you change the delay time?
If that is the case, the code would need a little bit of adaption.

From what I understand, increasing the delay time is like downsampling (is it?). Now, I wonder how exactly delay time and sample rate are related mathematically. E.g. if I took the derivative of the delay time, would I get something that is proportional to the change in sample rate?

I read about the filter curve adaption during downsampling here:
https://www2.spsc.tugraz.at/www-archive/downloads/Mueller11_DopplerSRC_0.pdf <https://www2.spsc.tugraz.at/www-archive/downloads/Mueller11_DopplerSRC_0.pdf>
...but how would that apply to delay time interpolation?

Also: Is it really mandatory to choose a filter cutoff below pi, when the input and output Sample rates match? For a simple static delay that should be the case.

Best wishes, 

> Am 2021-04-29 um 17:55 schrieb Charles Z Henry <czhenry at gmail.com>:
> It's sort of disappointing that it has to be so expensive, but you do
> what you have to to get the quality and consistency of the sound.  The
> question of whether there is an optimal interpolating kernel (which
> I'd like to work on) isn't really going to help you in the near term.
> It's enough just to find a solution that works well and performs well.
> You've got a scalability issue when using multiple instances of delreadsinc~:
> Each new instance recalculates the table when created.  The table is
> stored in the struct _sigvdsinc so it is also duplicated for each
> instance beyond the first.
> So, I propose a few other choices:
> 1.  Calculate the table during setup and add a class method that
> returns a pointer to that table, so that a new object doesn't
> calculate the table.  It just points at the existing table.  This
> option would use memory, even if the object is never used, and would
> not free the table under any circumstances (not great, but easy)
> 2.  Add a class method that returns NULL if the table has not been
> created or a pointer to the existing table and a class method to set
> the pointer.  The first instance of the object used would run the
> initialize_sinc_table function, but each additional instance would
> not.  The table hangs around for future use, even if the instances are
> deleted.
> 3.  Add the class methods in 2. plus methods to keep a count of the
> number of instances.  Then, when the last instance is deleted, the
> table is freed and the pointer re-assigned to NULL.
> By my approximation, that table uses about (4*4096*10) 160 kB (or 320
> kB in double precision).  I'm not real clear on the differences in
> stack, static array allocation, and dynamic allocation in
> behavior/performance.  I know it's there, just can't seem to digest it
> when I look at it.  You might have had some reasons in mind to
> allocate the array the way you did--I'd like to learn more about this
> Best,
> Chuck
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:27 PM Max <abonnements at revolwear.com> wrote:
>> Hi Chuck,
>> Clemens isn't on the list (yet), he sent me some measurements he made in
>> response to your post.
>> All at 48kHz.
>> https://cloud.yuca.biz/s/WZseAmBQm9z6NdL
>> he says he can't hear a difference with 10 samples cutoff at pi and 14
>> samples cutoff at 0.85*pi
>> It sounds better than than delread4~ from 6 samples cutoff at pi upwards.
>> greetings,
>> Max & Clemens
>> On 28.04.21 17:56, Charles Z Henry wrote:
>>> I read through the code in your d_delay.c for the delread_sinc implementation.
>>> It's a 22-point interpolator--very high quality and it looks like a
>>> good implementation
>>> The Hermite spline is the best 4-point cubic interpolator, but the
>>> point of those polynomial interpolators is just to be cheap, and good
>>> enough for regular usage.  It doesn't require a table, so it also
>>> doesn't need as much cache space
>>> I don't think it's *the* optimal 4-point interpolator.  It's just the
>>> best cubic polynomial 4-point interpolator.  You could re-use your
>>> sinc interpolator code for other shorter interpolation kernels, ones
>>> that are better than cubics but more expensive to calculate.
>>> At least for me, it's still an open mathematical problem that I've
>>> come back to, from time to time.  I started to wonder if I could
>>> expand the error terms in the truncated sinc spectrum in the form of
>>> 1/w, 1/w^2, 1/w^3, .... and then cancel them out by polynomial
>>> correctors.  An alternative to windowing the sinc function, this could
>>> be a more precise way to set the rate of attenuation in the stop-band,
>>> while still retaining all the smoothness of the sinc shape.
>>> I get a break from teaching in about 3 weeks.  I'm looking at the math
>>> right now, and I don't think I can solve it quickly (or maybe at all).
>>> How short does your sinc interpolator with Blackman-Harris window need
>>> to be when you start to get the timbre change effect?
>>> Best,
>>> Chuck
>>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 7:18 PM Max <abonnements at revolwear.com> wrote:
>>>> Interesting. I've included that in the test patch.
>>>> It exposes the same samplerate dependent timbre change. So far only the
>>>> Sinc function solves the issue.
>>>> On 25.04.21 23:15, Sebastian Shader wrote:
>>>>> I have a [vdhs~] object in my library that does hermite spline
>>>>> interpolation for a delay line (like tabread4c~).
>>>>> https://github.com/sebshader/shadylib
>>>>> (also on deken)
>>>>> I had to re-make delread~ as delread4c~ because delread~s delay lines
>>>>> are not exposed in the .h files
>>>>> -seb
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Max <abonnements at revolwear.com>
>>>>> To: pd-list at lists.iem.at <pd-list at lists.iem.at>
>>>>> Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2021 5:45 am
>>>>> Subject: [PD] 4-point interpolation changes timbre depending on sample rate
>>>>> Hi list,
>>>>> the 4-point interpolation in tabread4~ has been a popular topic in the
>>>>> past, going back to at least 2008. [1]
>>>>> A similar issue is in delread4~. In fact a simple resonator changes its
>>>>> timbre quite drastically by just changing the sample rate of the audio
>>>>> interface. Attached is a test patch.
>>>>> The issue becomes audible when choosing an odd delay time and compare
>>>>> the result between an odd and an even sample rate (e.g. 44.1k vs. 48k).
>>>>> This is not good. In fact this is a serious defect. Imagine you want to
>>>>> market a product like a synth plugin (based on libpd) which sounds
>>>>> different depending on if the daw is opened in 44.1 or 48 kHz.
>>>>> Cyrille Henry has coded tabread4c~ with a four-point cubic interpolation
>>>>> in the nusmuk library, but there is no delread4c~ equivalent in nusmuk.
>>>>> Clemens Wegener has coded delreadsinc~ which implements a
>>>>> Whittaker–Shannon interpolation (Sinc function). This implementation
>>>>> does sounds consistent in any sample rate. It also sounds much better at
>>>>> very slow speeds inside a pitch shifter where delread4~ produces serious
>>>>> artefacts. The Sinc function requires a larger padding for the
>>>>> interpolation.
>>>>> There are a couple of questions regarding on how to contribute this to Pd.
>>>>> Vanilla objects are currently:
>>>>> delwrite~ = the sink
>>>>> delread~ = control rate tap
>>>>> delread4~ (vd~) = audio rate tap with a four-point interpolation
>>>>> 1. the code in delwrite~ isn't agnostic towards the interpolation since
>>>>> it already provides the padding for the 4 point interpolation
>>>>> 2. if we add more interpolation methods to delread / tabread, the
>>>>> cleanest way would be to just have one tap object and the interpolation
>>>>> can be changed by a message and argument to it. currently there are
>>>>> implementations for the miller 4pt, cubic 4pt and Sinc.
>>>>> Unfortunately delread4 already carries the 4 from 4-point interpolation
>>>>> in its name, so probably it would be the best to deprecate that and find
>>>>> a new name like varidelay~ or so.
>>>>> [1] Review of tabread4~ threads in the archive
>>>>> https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2019-06/125391.html
>>>>> <https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2019-06/125391.html>
>>>>> [2] https://github.com/chairaudio/pure-data/tree/feature/delreadsinc
>>>>> <https://github.com/chairaudio/pure-data/tree/feature/delreadsinc>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Pd-list at lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list at lists.iem.at> mailing list
>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
>>>>> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>>>>> <https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Pd-list at lists.iem.at mailing list
>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pd-list at lists.iem.at mailing list
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pd-list at lists.iem.at mailing list
>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
> _______________________________________________
> Pd-list at lists.iem.at mailing list
> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/attachments/20210429/8a6f46bf/attachment.htm>

More information about the Pd-list mailing list