[PD] Pd standalone instruments ...

padawan12 padawan12 at obiwannabe.co.uk
Thu Jul 27 09:50:19 CEST 2006 

hmm here's some missing smileys from that :) ;) ;)
I read it back and it sounds a bit grouchy... it's not, I'm just
genuinely mystified why I cant see what the difficulty is
and I want someone to tell me so I can kick myself. :)


On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:37:33 +0100
padawan12 <padawan12 at obiwannabe.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:17:25 +0200
> Andre Schmidt <andre at osku.de> wrote:
> 
> > i thought pd is an "environment"... :/
> 
> Semantics. Nomenclature. I don't see these boundaries myself. That's my view
> as a software engineer and computer scintist, not as a Pd "user" - in that
> capacity it's more than adequate as an "environment".
> I see a "software development environment" without the
> last mile, a bit like a bridge that goes 9/10 of the way across a river.
> 
> Right now it's the BEST audio dsp development environment that exists.
> That's because of the speed the visual interface allows, I can be about 10
> times as productive as before.
>  
> It's a wonderful tool, for experimentation, prototyping, teaching, or design
> of media for use in other applications - but it stops one station short of
> being complete. The suggestion that one can use it to prototype code, and that
> if you want code "just write it in C" is simply peverse imho.  I'm sure I am
> not the only one who sees that.  
> 
> > and now with the "kiosk" mode from iohannes i dont see why you people
> > dont make an installer with your favorite tool... :/
> > (or pay for someone to do it)
> 
> I'm sure "kiosk mode" is a fantastic step forward for those that want
> to hide the gubbins from non technical users. That's not what I'm talking about.
> As far as paying someone to do it, I'm in no position to do that. I'm not
> developing commercial applications. Rather the converse, I'd be interested to
> know if anyone would like to pay *me* to work on such a project. But I kind of
> get the feeling rather few people here see the value in a such a step forwards.
> 
> It doesn't bother me though. I see a free software tool that does what Pd does
> and outputs code as an inevitability, sooner or later, it's just the logical
> thing to do. It's just that I'm rather scratching my head wondering why it doesn't
> do so already. Perhaps I've forgotten some fundamental reason why exploding the netlist
> into a code listing might not be trivial, reenterancy maybe, I've not properly
> studied the source of the server to see how it instantiates and schedules objects.
> But I don't see why that should disqualify from me from commenting on this obvious
> step forwards. 
> 
> Does anybody who deeply understands Puredata have any comment on why this
> wouldn't be easy?
> 
> Or a reference to previous attempts that failed so I might study the problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > ... :/
> > andre
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, 2006-07-27 at 03:04 +0100, padawan12 wrote:
> > > I find this discussion very interesting. As I've said elsewhere
> > > before, this is the single most important missing
> > > feature in Puredata. Not being able to turn the netlist
> > > into code is where the road ends for Pd as a serious software
> > > development tool, where it stops short of being a fully
> > > fledged DSP visual programming language. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:46:55 +0200
> > > IOhannes m zmoelnig <zmoelnig at iem.at> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > hi
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
> > > >  >
> > > >  >> to read a special configuration-file? hmm, why? what is wrong with the
> > > >  >> registry (well, there are lots of things wrong with it, but we don't
> > > >  >> want to discuss this here, do we?); at least it makes your program a
> > > >  >> little less "cryptic looking" (for those windoze-users who don't use
> > > >  >> win95 any more)
> > > >  >
> > > >  > Editing a registry is far beyond the scope of what the people I want
> > > >  > using my patch are willing to learn.  I'm not complaining, this is of
> > > >  > course my problem, but this is the reason I made the suggestion.  If
> > > >  > I'm the only person who thinks something like this would be neat, then
> > > >  > I'll drop it.
> > > > 
> > > > i was rather suggesting that _you_ should edit the registry (via a small 
> > > > installer) - that is, if you want it to be plug'n'play for your clients.
> > > > 
> > > > i think that if you want people to have an easily usable system, then 
> > > > even editing a cryptic(!) .ini-file is way beyond.
> > > > so you need something more intuitive, like a small setup program (doing 
> > > > autodetection) that will write to a backend (no matter wheter it is an 
> > > > rc-file or the registry)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  >
> > > >  >
> > > >  >> what might be a good idea though, would be a king of "kiosk" mode, where
> > > >  >> the pd-main window is not present and where there are no menus at all
> > > >  >> (so you would have to control pd via messages).
> > > >  >
> > > >  > I think menus could stay.  Menus are ubiquitous.  But it seems the
> > > >  > only need for a Pd-window is debugging, or of course analysis and
> > > >  > such; there are times when it's needed, but there are times it isn't.
> > > > 
> > > > on my side, i (and my non-freaky composers) had never a problem with the 
> > > > additional main-window.
> > > > the menus however, are really there for handling pd (the framework) and 
> > > > NOT your application (patch).
> > > > if there is NO menu, you can build your custom one (either with special 
> > > > widgets like [popup] or with normal [bng]s.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > The people who might use my patch are other composers interested in
> > > > > alternate tuning systems.  For the most part they are not computer
> > > > > people.  "Cryptic-looking" isn't a bust in the slightest, it is how it
> > > > > comes across, when I send an email to a composer to tell him how to
> > > > > use my patch, and I have to devote several paragraphs to telling him
> > > > > how to first get a couple of external libraries loaded and make sure
> > > > > it selected the right sound device.  Again, I would love to tell him
> > > > > "tough, learn something about computers if you want to use it," but
> > > > > that would impede my possible future lessons with him.
> > > > 
> > > > i totally agree that this if often nor an option.
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >> apart from that, why don't you distribute your "application" bundled
> > > > >> with everything: pd, externals, abstractions, patch, startup-script.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Startup-script you say...  I hadn't thought of that.  Far less work
> > > > > than developing a standalone-application compiler.
> > > > 
> > > > yes, that was the main point of my email: use startup-scripts.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > mfga.sdr.
> > > > IOhannes
> > > > 
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