[PD] oldschool rave synths

padawan12 padawan12 at obiwannabe.co.uk
Fri Mar 16 09:26:41 CET 2007


On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 06:54:40 -0700
shift8 <shift8 at digitrash.com> wrote:

> what resources would you recommend that illustrate calculus
> as used for signal processing, but from a more functional point of view
> as opposed to a theoretical one.  

I heartily recommend Steven W Smiths "Scientists and Engineers guide to DSP", 
before tackling Perry Cook, Eduardo Miranda and our own Miller Puckette.
Calculus is only a small part of the picture, maybe you use the word too
broadly because it's just a technique that helps understand certain equations.
For calculus you needn't really go above A level, a little of that with a good
grasp of algebra, trig and geometry are a solid enough basis. Linear algebra
and matrices are some useful tricks to put in your bag, and you can get 
a long way by reading many of the tutorials for Octave.

http://www.dspguide.com/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Real-Sound-Synthesis-Interactive-Applications/dp/1568811683

As Chuckk and some of the other mathematicians have said here, some
esoteric pure math like operator theory subsumes the whole subject, because
sound is about changes and transformations, but I wonder what other peoples
top 10 'must have' concepts are. I suppose it depends on your goals, for example
a lot of composers learn a disproportionate amount of stats and distributions.


> i know there are dsp chip programming
> guides for engineering, but there seems to be only "how" and not the
> "why" in most cases there.  too theoretical of descriptions makes it
> difficult for me to visualize the action or imagine the sonic
> implications of the theory being discussed.
> 
> personally, i find that the application of theories make much more sense
> than the abstract theories themselves.  maybe it's brain damage, or
> perhaps plain 'ol ignorance.
> 
> but anyway, here's a simple example:
> 
> someone tells me an empirical definition of the nyquist theory, it's
> hard to get my head around.  but if someone says "hey, you can't sample
> a frequency that is >= 1/2 of the sample rate, because the wavelength is
> too short in duration to fit sample boundaries, and it causes
> distortions that are related to the frequency being sampled." that
> totally makes sense.  i can picture that from a functional point of
> view, and then have a much easier time with the math an theory of it.

I strongly agree with you about teaching theory in context. It is
hard to pick good examples and write using only words so that the knowledge
sticks. Sometimes symbolic representation is the only way to be unambiguous.
That is why Puredata is a powerful teaching and exploration tool, the diagram
is the program. We are also lucky to have people like Derek and Frank who 
write from a position of "least assumptions". I find a lot can be learned
by just browsing the archives.


> 
> are there any resources, books, etc out that approach the subject of dsp
> in a style like this?

One of Eduardo Mirandas more gentle books "Computer Sound Design" gives
a pretty broad read, it also has some fun Windows and Mac software on
the CD ROM. And you can't go wrong reading classics like Roads.

Perhaps it's important to know that classic DSP is only a part of synthesis
and analysis. It's the "implementation" layer.

Another area of wisdom to explore is physics. I like to start sound design
lectures by explaining that sound is a branch of dynamics, particularly
fluid dynamics. Physics really helps design realistic sound effects, to know
about propagation, interference, reflection, damping, stress, elasticity
and all that. Then you can make ballpark models of what sound waves are doing
in an object of given materials and dimensions. There's a big section in the
book I'm writing about knowledge, imperative, declarative and procedural,
and how to move from a description to a model to a method. Really this is
Software Engineering, but that's what we are doing at the end of the day.

Empirical knowledge is so important too ( I think you use that term a bit
incorrectly above).
All the good synthesists seem to learn by experience, lots of experience
gained during thousands of hours of playing about with code. It's no 
discredit to people like Eno and Bristow that they probably don't know 
a Bessel function from an Aardvark, but are masters of FM because they
simply know it inside out in a practical way. Many accomplished producers
work this way, the theory follows later to connect the wealth of practical
experience they gain in the studio. There's no "right" way to do it.
However the sooner you have theory the better you will have consistent and
reproducible results because you get why something works rather than just
observing that it does.

> 
> thanks and high regards,
> star


Cheers, thanks for the encouragement dude, but I am not a Jedi yet ;) Not by
a long way. The term that describes my situation is "Ronin". 

As for ninjas, I believe they are only mercenary assassins. They would
be no match for Pirates. Yaaar. This Slashdot poll settles the matter once
and for all :)
http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=1396


best,
Andy

> 
> On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 15:24 +0000, padawan12 wrote:
> > [pow~] is from cyclone, I think in the case I used it (pow 2) you can replace it with
> > an equivilent [expr~] expression or [*~]. I thought [lowpass] and [highpass] were vanilla. 
> > They are needed to set the coeffs for biquad~ 
> > 
> > On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:49:29 -0800
> > Josh Steiner <josh at vitriolix.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > i seem to be missing:
> > > 
> > > lowpass, highpass and pow~
> > > 
> > > running 0.39.2-extended-test7 on winxp
> > > 
> > > -josh
> > > 
> > > padawan12 wrote:
> > > > Sorry Hardoff, scratch that last load of rubbish. The parasite synth is the
> > > > wrong patch, and I thought I was talking about different oscillators, it
> > > > should have been something more like the ones here. The oscillator is
> > > > a dual-slope one in hoover-triangles.pd, much easier to pull out than the last mess.
> > > >
> > > > Another take is the hoover-pwm.pd, which is a juno voice basically, it's much brighter and
> > > > fizzy down low. It just depends what you want more in the low registers, up high theres
> > > > not so much difference. 
> > > > One is pulse width mod of a square, the other is slope mod of a triangle, both have a bit
> > > > of frequency lfo on too at about 5 Hz. A fat Juno hoover noise uses the fast chorus 
> > > > so there's one on both versions. Each has the same sequence so you can compare the sounds.
> > > > All the hoover flavours have a different character, like a highpass resonant filter
> > > > makes an interesting addition. But what they share in common is a busy sound made 
> > > > by having 3 or 4 detuned components. Juno is a pwm + saw + square mix, with the 
> > > > square an octave down.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:34:01 +0900
> > > > "hard off" <hard.off at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >   
> > > >> andy's tokyo techno one is cool.
> > > >>
> > > >> but i want hoovers.  i keep try to make them and they always suck.
> > > >> there must have been a secret ingredient that i am forgetting.
> > > >>
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> Mechanize something idiosyncratic.
> 
> 




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