[PD] [announce] Integra Live 1.5 released
Jonathan Wilkes
jancsika at yahoo.com
Fri Jan 18 22:23:35 CET 2013
----- Original Message -----
> From: Lorenzo Sutton <lorenzofsutton at gmail.com>
> To: pd-list at iem.at
> Cc:
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [PD] [announce] Integra Live 1.5 released
>
> On 18/01/13 20:40, Leandro da Mota Damasceno wrote:
>> So if we wanted to improve the GUI we would have to drop tcl/tk all
>> together or make it messy and heavy?
>
> Or simply have Pd as the engine and devise funkier GUI stuff outside
> which can communicate with Pd, so that one concentrate on the dataflow
> (once I said "dsp" and got slapped by Mathieu :) in Pd and on making a
>
> beutiful gui somewhere else...
>
> Gripd was a good example of the concept I thik:
> http://crca.ucsd.edu/~jsarlo/gripd/
>
> I feel more and more this idea of the separation of content and
> presentation/interface as I had (sic) to use max since ages I was
> avoiding it, and I find the complete mixture of 'guiness' and curviness
> makes me dizzy and disctracts me all the time, for example I often whant
> to grab patch chords to delete them and some silly pop-up will come out.
> It looks like the content + presentation mixture we have with HTML and
> still slowly trying to recover....
>
> Of course on the GUI side, I'm not sure there a library out there to
> support Pd out of the box, that is sliders aren't enough...Maybe JUCE -
> http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce.php
What about qt graphics view?
-Jonathan
>
> Lorenzo.
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:jancsika at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>
>> >________________________________
>>
>> > From: Leandro da Mota Damasceno <lemota at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lemota at gmail.com>>
>> >To: Pierre-Olivier Boulant <po.boulant at free.fr
>> <mailto:po.boulant at free.fr>>
>> >Cc: pd-list <pd-list at iem.at <mailto:pd-list at iem.at>>
>> >Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 12:33 PM
>> >Subject: Re: [PD] [announce] Integra Live 1.5 released
>> >
>> >
>> >The GUI is beautiful!!!!! That's Apache Flex? I don't
> think we can
>> maket tcl/tk look like that on PD, can we?
>>
>>
>> It's not that you can't do that in tk, it's just that tk
> will get in
>> the way of you doing that at nearly
>> every turn. For example, here's the code you'd need to draw a
>> gradient on a canvas:
>>
>> http://wiki.tcl.tk/6100
>>
>> Buttons would have to be gifs or bitmaps created in some other
>> program (or on the fly with some
>> hacky code similar to the gradient stuff), unless you use tcl/tk 8.6
>> in which case you could use
>> pngs. You might be able to use the half-implemented tk theming
>> engine to get a scrollbar that
>> looks like the one in Integra, but you'd probably end up using pngs
>> or something for the items in
>> the Module Library, or else pull your hair out trying to figure out
>> how to get the theme to look
>> like that on all platforms when all platforms do _not_ have the same
>> building blocks for their
>> widgets. For Pd'ers who like the stripped down, 1990s look it is
>> serendipitous, because that is
>> all they can get without someone doing an inordinate amount of work
>> to make it
>> look any other way. (Just find a gui made with tk that looks
>> anything like Integra.)
>>
>> But I do have a question about:
>>
>>
>> http://www.integralive.org/
>>
>> Specifically, the png accompanying "Turnkey Audio
> Processing"--
>> specifically the outputs
>> of GranularDelay1 going to the inputs of StereoReverb1. Look
>> quickly then answer the
>> question:
>> Does out1 connect to in1 or in2?
>>
>> I'm not against bezier curves, but the GUI engine must handle them
>> with care or they'll cause
>> unnecessary problems.
>>
>>
>> Bezier curves make it more difficult for the user to anticipate
>> ambiguous overlaps with cords.
>> The user makes connections which are obvious in his/her mind as well
>> as obvious when they do
>> the physical work with the mouse of connecting each outlet to each
>> inlet. (Btw, the user's
>> mouse makes a trip between outlet and inlet that is a straight line,
>> so the physical action
>> no longer correlates with the drawn representation.) Then the mind
>> tricks
>> him/her into thinking that the GUI diagram must be as clear as the
>> mental diagram because
>> all the steps leading up to the final result were clear. (This is
>> still a problem in Pd, but slightly less
>> so because the user is more likely to guess correctly what a
>> straight line between a and b looks
>> like, and they can consequently anticipate ambiguous overlaps and
>> attempt to avoid them before
>> making them.) Then the user goes and teaches a class, or runs an
>> errand, and comes back to the patch
>> but the mental picture is now gone. So he/she recreates the mental
>> image from the GUI image,
>> which is ambiguous, which requires either more work to remember the
>> "real" connection or
>> actually manipulating the GUI cord with the mouse to see what really
>> connects to what. Requiring
>> either type of work breaks with the philosophy of being able to
>> deduce what the patch does simply
>> by looking at it. (Btw, I'm still not sure whether your cords
>> overlap or not.)
>>
>>
>> So cords should try to repel each other in such a situation, or at
>> least color themselves differently
>> when they do in fact overlap. Otherwise you end up with the
>> equivalent of a scheme IDE that
>> sometimes matches a closing parenthesis with two "candidate"
> opening
>> parentheses but doesn't
>> indicate which is the actual match. Nobody would tolerate such an
>> ambiguity in a text-based
>> langauge. We shouldn't in GUIs, either.
>>
>> -Jonathan
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Pierre-Olivier Boulant
>> <po.boulant at free.fr <mailto:po.boulant at free.fr>> wrote:
>> >
>> >No problem about the report. :)
>> >>
>> >>I'm here if you need further testing too. Look me up on
> IRC
>> freenode #dataflow. I'm "pob" over there.
>> >>
>> >>For what it's worth, the only interaction I have with the
> GUI is
>> when closing. I can actually click on the buttons of the
> "save" pop
>> up window.
>> >>
>> >>Cheers
>> >>Pierre-Olivier
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On 18/01/2013 17:15, Jamie Bullock wrote:
>> >>
>> >>On 18 Jan 2013, at 15:48, Pierre-Olivier Boulant
>> <po.boulant at free.fr <mailto:po.boulant at free.fr>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Hi,
>> >>>>
>> >>>>It looks very nice indeed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Running the Windows version, I have a problem with the
> mouse.
>> >>>>I can't interact at all with the GUI. I can click
> on the menu
>> bar (File Edit View etc.), this much works but that's it. The GUI
>> does not respond to any clicks.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Windows 7, 64bit OS.
>> >>>>
>> >>>I'm sorry to hear that. I must admit, we haven't
> yet tested on
>> 64-bit Windows, so it's possibly to do with that.
>> >>>
>> >>>I hope you don't mind but I've added your report
> to the
>> UserVoice forum:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>
> http://integralive.uservoice.com/forums/58883-general/suggestions/3565091-mouse-interaction-not-working-on-64-bit-windows
>> >>>
>> >>>If you "vote" for the issue, you will get an
> automatic
>> notification when it is resolved.
>> >>>
>> >>>Jamie
>> >>>
>> >>
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